EHRC to write to the Conservative Party re Islamophobia

Sonic67

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IronGiant

It's a can of worms.  People need to be free from religious persecution, but extremism in any form needs to be stopped.

Bl4ckGryph0n

Let’s try an not get too far away from the original topic and not just focus on the lack of definition of this.

It would be interesting to see what the actually complaints have been that have been presented to the Conservative party. So far it seems to be lacking in details (similar to the definition), I’d love to see whether there is some substance behind it.

Sonic67

http://www.civitas.org.uk/content/files/islamophobiaopenletter.pdf

We urge the government, political parties, local councils and other organisations to reject this flawed proposed definition.

Emma Webb, Civitas
Hardeep Singh, Network of Sikh Organisations (NSOUK)
Lord Singh of Wimbledon
Tim Dieppe, Christian Concern
Stephen Evans, National Secular Society (NSS)
Sadia Hameed, Council of Ex-Muslims of Britain (CEMB)
Prof. Paul Cliteur, candidate for the Dutch Senate, Professor of Law, University of Leiden
Brendan O’Neill, Editor of Spiked
Maajid Nawaz, Founder, Quilliam International
Rt. Rev’d Dr Gavin Ashenden
Pragna Patel, director of Southall Black Sisters
Professor Richard Dawkins
Rahila Gupta, author and Journalist
Peter Whittle, founder and director of New Culture Forum
Trupti Patel, President of Hindu Forum of Britain
Dr Lakshmi Vyas, President Hindu Forum of Europe
Harsha Shukla MBE, President Hindu Council of North UK
Tarang Shelat, President Hindu Council of Birmingham
Ashvin Patel, Chairman, Hindu Forum (Walsall)
Ana Gonzalez, partner at Wilson Solicitors LLP
Baron Desai of Clement Danes
Baroness Cox of Queensbury
Lord Alton of Liverpool
Bishop Michael Nazir-Ali
Ade Omooba MBE, Co-Chair National Church Leaders Forum (NCLF)
Wilson Chowdhry, British Pakistani Christian Association
Ashish Joshi, Sikh Media Monitoring Group
Satish K Sharma, National Council of Hindu Temples
Rumy Hasan, Academic and author
Amina Lone, Co-Director, Social Action and Research Foundation
Peter Tatchell, Peter Tatchell Foundation
Seyran Ates, Imam
Gina Khan, One Law for All
Mohammed Amin MBE
Baroness D’Souza
Michael Mosbacher, Acting Editor, Standpoint Magazine
Lisa-Marie Taylor, CEO FiLiA
Julie Bindel, journalist and feminist campaigner
Dr Adrian Hilton, academic
Neil Anderson, academic
Tom Holland, historian
Toby Keynes
Prof. Dr. Bassam Tibi, Professor Emeritus for International Relations, University of Goettingen
Dr Stephen Law, philosopher and author

Toko Black

I don't think it's possible to get away from the definitions ... or lack of any agreement upon them.

As I see it, the problem is fundamentally down to one thing that makes it neigh on impossible to construct a workable, practical and fair universal policy or statement about prejudice regarding Islam or for that matter many other faiths.

That problem is down to how we use language in a technical and legal sense versus how we use it in everyday speech.
Judiasm stands out as one of the only religions that also uses the same general terminology that is used in everyday speech to identify both a religion and an ethnic group.
That of course being "Jewish".
With Jewishness being both in common use as a reference to a religion and an ethnic group means that laws protecting ethnicity under racism laws also help prohibit the use of using prejudicial and prejorative statements about the Jewish faith being co-opted into being a pseudonym for racial slurs - i.e making it difficult and illegal in most places to use criticism of Judiasm as a cover for racism, because the same term (Jew) is literally synonymous with both rather than figuratively like other religions/ethnicities.

In simple terms, someone can mask prejudice against middle eastern arabs and central asians by using the corresponding religion that is synonymous(in the general consciousness rather than a literal definition) with those races - but struggle attempting to do the same with people of jewish ancestory, because both the religious identity and racial identity use the same term.

I have absolutely no idea how to solve that problem, but it is clear that we need to understand and accept:

1) religion, beliefs and ideologies should always be open to criticism like any ideas anywhere they form the basis for how we treat, respond and to others or how we expect them to live.
2) criticism of religions synonymous with a particular ethnicity will be used to mask racial prejudices by those with certain political/idealogical agendas.
3) religions and political ideologies will attempt to curtail criticism of beliefs and ideas by implying any and all criticism as masquerading attempts at racial or political bigotry.​
The attempt to prohibit or limit the ability of bigots to spread racial and political prejudices (under the auspices of free speech and fair criticism) is an honorable thing at heart.
However, how it is possible to achieve without seriously limiting the ability to legitimately criticise bad and dangerous ideas which is to me at least of greater importance, I have absolutely no idea.

Bl4ckGryph0n

My point was, isn't this threat about clarifications regarding complaints made against the tory party? We don't even know what those complaints are, yet the discussion is being diverted from those complaints into some sort of discussion about a definition. That is a whole separate discussion in my opinion and unless you know what those complaints are about it is irrelevant to the tories.

PS. Just think what the H in IHRA stands for before you start drawing parallels And what the definition covers. Criticism is allowed, it isn't about that at all.

Toko Black

I read that, and all that comes to mind is appologetics and diversion.
Glad you are taking the no nonsense, zero tolerance approach to this as you have taken 'repeatedly' with the issues regarding the Labour party

Bl4ckGryph0n

WTF? You really have some comprehension issues dude. Which part of let’s keep the focus on the Conservative party did you not get?

It really highlights your own prejudices and total inability to listen to what anyone actually writes.

weaviemx5

Surely the complaints and definition are both as important? If there’s no agreed definition of what islamophobia is, how can someone rule on the complaint of islamophobia? (Edited)

weaviemx5

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