Vinyl/tape wear degradation vs. digital

noiseboy72

The only thing with analogue is that even in 10 000 years, it will still be possible to play it, as it's easy to decode and work out how to play it - even if all the current playback equipment had gone. Look at the gold record nailed onto the side of the Voyager probes, they tried to pick format that would be decipherable to an alien intelligence. Can you imagine what they would have made of a CD?

Encryption presents an even bigger challenge. How do you preserve the information needed to decrypt a recording years into the future? If you have even a basic storage medium like a CD, who do you work out how to play it without a frame of reference? Add in some form of playback protection and you most probably be royally screwed!

We are just starting to see digital obsolescence causing problems in the A/V world, as many older masters in the late 80s and early 90s were made onto Betamax tapes using the Sony PCM F1 and similar and these are now getting hard to play - due to the machines wearing out and the tapes themselves suffering. DAT is not far behind and even CDs can get the dreaded rot, not to mention the finite lifespan of CD-Rs

78s from the early 20th century will still play, as will early steel wire recordings, but early tapes need careful storage. Some 70s 2" tape TV programs of great value are now stored with a set of tape heads that are known to play the tape correctly and there's loads of more recent stuff that's really suffering. We risk becoming a forgotten generation, despite the amount of media we have created.

The best compromise? Retain the analogue masters for as long as is possible, but make digital and possibly even analogue clones for future generations.

BlueWizard

This is the thing though, I don't think anyone is saying that. Yes, they might utter those words (rarely) but what they mean is that they like the sound of vinyl better.

True there was a lot of mass market crap out there, but most new vinyl is on 180g discs.

You are right though in that, in the modern age, most vinyl is digital until it hits the grooves. But I'm not sure that that matters. We've had this discussion relative to analog vs digital, and for me it always comes down to it being the content and not the medium the content is contained in. CD can sound good when mixed right, or it can sound like crap if mixed wrong. Same with vinyl, when it is good it is good, and when it is bad, it is bad.

Many types of music use the full and considerable dynamic range of CD or Digital medium. But POP is typically not one of them. So, again, it is the content not the format.

As to digitizing Vinyl, that is happening a lot. Many people are moving to Streaming of music, either locally or from Streaming Services. Consequently those with large vinyl collections who want the convenience of local streaming will indeed digitize the vinyl so they can access it over the Network. By digitizing you own vinyl takes time but, more or less, cost nothing. To re-buy that music on CD or other digital format can get pretty expensive. So, the user weight time against money and convenience.

Actually Vinyl is the only growing segment of the Music industry. All others are falling. And that is because of Internet Streaming of Music. Internet Streaming may not be good, but for most, it is good enough and relatively speaking, dirt cheap. I fear a Day of Reckoning though. Music Artist are getting screwed, for millions (perhaps billions) of plays, Artists get pennies. And despite what the Streaming industry would claim, Streaming does become a substitute for buying. I suspect there will be an increased cost in the future for Streaming Services. My thought was to charge for Playlists. Anything you have play-listed, you have, in a sense bought. So you get an initial Playlist of 25 with the account, and if you want to archive more music in a Playlist, you have to buy extra Playlist capacity. But  ... that's just me, and the Day of Reckoning is somewhere in the distance future.

Steve/bluewizard

dannnielll

Again  Steve, you are making lots of sense...  I do have difficulty with the Streaming concept, and while I have occasionally been with Spotify and Deezer,  I am no longer . The concept of paying for playlists najes a lot of sense. My few shekels are mostly spent in charity shop CDs ..although a few are spent on new ones in Tower and HMV. I see the physical possession of the CD as a licence rather than the medium. Having said that, I am currently listening to an obscure folk radio station from SF  on Tunein Radio, using good headphones and the Cyrus Soundkey.. and the sound is superb.. I wish I could say the same for the content, which is self indulgent.
The current "revival"  in Vinyl is basically at the noise level in the music economy.

dannnielll

I am not at all sure that the argument about archives holds water.  It depends whether we get bombed back to the dark ages or not, but assuming we are not, then standard Binary coding is extremely robust... The examples you picked in Betamax were analogue!.
If one assumes that we have microscopy and computers, any CD or Blu-ray would be readable.  I have made an entry in the DAC  digital formats thread on this.
The problem with Analogue Masters is that they also degrade and the Noise to Signal increases. Now there is a concern and archivists would be looking at digital metal on glass substrate.
My recommendation would be to digitise at the highest resolution currently  possible and of course retain the masters

noiseboy72

The Sony F1 PCM system encoded 16Bit 44.05KHz onto the video segment of the Betamax tape. Very similar to DAT I understand.

It was designed as a consumer format, but was soon adopted by studios as a cost effective way to make digital masters.

gibbsy

Hope it's waterproof.

It's only a century ago that everything known to man was committed to paper with recordings of any type being cutting edge technology.

One good thing though. 10,000 years. Brexit may have been settled by then.

Khazul

Depends who you ask - for consumer it maybe a substitute for buying, but for artists some consider it a substitute from piracy in that the end result seems about the same - no beer money

oldcootstereo

In no particular order:
- Few "discussions" I have ever seen on digital vs. vinyl were presented as it being a pure matter of preference... there almost invariably a (pseudo?)technical aspect attributed as a "good" for vinyl (all that "warmth", maybe code for softer leading-edge response?) while digital was generally portrayed as having some inherent artificial and harshness qualities.  When digital has been around for about 100 years like records have, it will also be as nearly perfect as it can be, and it is already ahead of vinyl in most aspects.  It stands repeating that vinyl has no where to improve without heavy electronic, probably including digital, processing... which is the antithesis of the purist/minimalist standing that analog/vinyl somehow is better by dint of being a continuous, minimally processed signal.  

- The artist's cut from music sales and unfairness in distribution has always been an issue, especially for those who don't have the general popularity to demand fair pay or a good lawyer.  But that is a different issue to whether vinyl or digital has superior sound potential. I say "potential" because there is a lot of electronics between the needle or digital device output which has a significant effect on the end listening result.  The best vinyl record or digital file is only as good as the stereo it gets played through.  

- Archive? Sometimes that is best accomplished by the sheer number of copies that exist, regardless of media format.  Besides, after nuclear WW3 few analog music copies would survive as they reside primarily in cities... there's more than enough warheads to destroy virtually every population centre on Earth.  How far down the dystopian scale do you want to go?  No elecricity at all?... good luck rigging up an Edison-style gramaphone to play a 180 gram microgroove record... and it will still sound as crappy as the the Amberolas.  I somehow think Mad Max types won't be audiophiles.

-Yes, CDs and particularly MP3s are compressed.  But a quality modern record still does not have the POTENTIAL dynamic range of a standard quality CD.  Just becasue the artists/engineers don't take full advantage of the available range doesn't mean the media format is at fault.  But digital gets slagged hard for compressed modern music, but those same titles would have no more dynamic range if the exact same mix/mastering was used to commit it to vinyl.  

- I see CDs eventually going the same route as vinyl, it will just take longer because CDs will give more use cycles than vinyl and are less likely to get warped/damaged by poor storage as quickly as records.  Plus the kids still "get" what those shiny plastic discs are about. Scraping a needle over some plastic, and it skips when the cat jumps to the floor off the chair next to the stereo stand?  How last century!  

- Digital streaming is better compared to analog AM/FM broadcasting, even though the source media is digital or analog.  I don't stream music or listen to it on analog radio anymore, so have no opinion on the quality issues raised there.  

-Vinyl gear may be growing market share at the moment... but I will be surprised if that continues for long.  Especially once everyone's grandad's vinyl stash has been rediscovered and relegated to the charity stores or car-boot sale circuit.  

- Not surprising that cartoon features the quintessential audiophile stereotype, two middle-aged, balding men. Maybe could be redrawn with a couple hipsters, but unlikely with young-adult nerds or jocks.  Seldom with females from any demographic.  Good thing we can laugh at ourselves!

-Analog tape, unless specifically designed for long life, few plays, is not a good archival medium.  For most consumer-grade tape, the magnetic fields fade, bleed-through to adjacent layers, the base material breaks down with age and becomes less flexible, to name a few issues.  The Betamax tapes were consumer-grade tape, there's yer problem.  

Got other things to do, TTFN.

dannnielll

Like your posting oldcoot.. just one minor point. Vinyl was unable to allow the levels of loudness that Digital can effortlessly provide.  .In digital it just means more binary 1 s not 0s  in the msb placeholders. In Vinyl it would have meant wider transverse excursions, and punching into the next groove. So the Engineers had more freedom which they exploited in the loudness wars.

oldcootstereo

Thanks dannnielll, that's what I meant when I said vinyl has no where to improve. The groove/stylus physical limitations and operating dynamics are as you describe.  Unless some new cost-effective materials are found to change the physics and heat/wear characteristics of the groove/stylus interface, vinyl is now at it's peak potential performance.  And that is only if the record/stylus are pristine and the turntable/arm is very complex (read expensive, finicky) and fully isolated from any extraneous vibration.

As my college Applied Mechanics instructor used to say, "You can't fool Physics."