The HiFi Myth and Professional System Design

Medrep1

Ok, so as someone who has always enjoyed hifi/av, albeit at a slightly novice level in terms of experience etc, I have found myself becoming quite immersed into it over the last 6 months, and as a result have substantially upgraded my kit and futhered my interest into this hobby/passion.

I am aware what room correction can do for maximising performance, but have no idea how to go about it

So would it be pertinent to ask here and now what advise you or others could give for my room? What if I was to post pics of my room? The room is approx 11x16

According to REW I have an approx 12db peak at 35hz irrespective where I place the sub, and boy have I tried various positions, phase, crossovers etc. The rest of the spectrum I have not looked into further as yet.

If this thread, or similar, had the ability to discuss pics of members rooms and advise on treatment, then I would be happy to buy from you, as I would see this as a service, rather than a sales opportunity.

Or, rather, how does one know how to go about correcting/improving a room acoustics without costly home visits from professionals.

Is it possible to start a thread where members can do this, and seek advice from experienced people, or at least get us started and pointing in the right direction?

Kind regards

David

ryart

I'm in full agreement with your philosophy of what it would be good to achieve and how difficult it is to do so. I do find that incorporating the room correction of the Meridian G68 does help in achieving our aims. By countering the additive effect of standing waves I am able to avoid the overblown bass and overly rich warmth to the sound and, dare I say it, get closer to the original sound and consequently a more convincing illusion of the performers in front of me.

As to how desirable or necessary room correction is, obviously depends on our room and how we want our hifi to sound. For anyone interested in getting the best from their hifi I think it is certainly worth investigating and perhaps an easier solution and more acceptable than acoustic treatment of the room. Unfortunately it isn't the easiest thing to imagine what effect it would have without a lengthy home dem.

I confess that I am also rusty about the sound at Covent Garden ; over the years I seemed to spend a lot more time with ENO at the Colliseum - left more cash for buying the electrostatic speakers .

(It is very sad that some regular posters should be considering a stop to their posting. As someone who loves music and is consequently fascinated by how to recreate it in the home I have found many of your posts very informative and useful, even if I have disagreed with some of them. Hopefully the sub-text will blow over and we can all carry on as usual.)

alexs2

Threads merged to keep both current,and in the same place,as opposed to one being lost as it moves down the forum.

ryart

Apologies for upsetting you so much CJROSS. I did try to be polite. I am not suggesting that your views about this thread shouldn't be aired, so much as I was would rather discuss the subject of room correction. If the OP is transgressing the rules of the forum then presumably a mod will take whatever action they consider necessary.

As regards your last paragraph, my mileage does indeed vary. I have not tried the Audyssy or Lyngdorf systems that the OP sells and as such can't comment on them. I have used the Meridian implementation and from that I can comment on whether, and how, it works.

From that practical experience I cannot understand how spending your budget on various bits of kit, source/amp/speakers can deal with the problems that standing waves cause. I assume that you have tried some form of "expensive parametric EQ system" otherwise you wouldn't be in a position to compare it with your preferred method. Which system did you try?

As to whether anyone needs to consider any form of room correction depends on the speakers they use and the room they are used in. Could you let us know the components you use and in what size of room so that we can know of this method which is an alternative to room correction?

CJROSS

Not tried any, I trust my ears. I have always laid my systems out in a symmetrical fashion in the rooms they are in, moved speakers about, changed geometry toe-in etc, altered frequency response when required, altered gain and crossover on subs if used, I have no need to be told I am wasting my time and should get m y system EQ’d by a salesman selling EQ hardware.

Well my main stereo system, is in my family room, 4.5m wide, 6m long with my speakers in lack bookshelve units, 1.5 away from walls firing down 6m length in symmetrical middle of room. Speakers are Dyn Conts 1.3 IIs, Amp is Sony ES amp that replaced a Primare A30.1 II, source is a Toshiba SD9500 for CD. Amp has tone controls that are used off source direct. I am as happy as a person who has used EQ to get where they are with their system.

(You have not annoyed me at all BTW – I just disagree with you about the type of posts I have seen plugging one method of sorting a room out – this can be done to suit a users preference without EQ IMHO)

ryart

Your approach is very much mine, and if I change anything (particularly speakers) I aim to get the set-up as good as possible. Only then do I run the room correction and then make any final adjustments to its automated solution by ear. For me this gives me the best sounding result. By best sounding I mean the most convincing illusion of having the performers in my room which allows me to enjoy the music with least awareness of it coming through a load of hardware.

I can understand your comment about not wanting to be told what to do by a salesman. I relate my experiences purely as an enthusiast in the hope that they may be some help to someone else.

Your room and set-up are very different to mine. My listening room is only 5m long by 3.5m wide. I also prefer large electrostatics which are always tricky to get right, but I wouldn't be without the openness of the sound. I can see that my system might benefit more than yours from some judicious room correction. I am sure you are as happy with your system as I was with mine, although I am happier still with the room correction applied. At the moment my SVS sub is not in use as the ML Ascents go down to about 35hz and the benefit of using the sub does not compensate for its inherent (by virtue of size) ugliness. Certainly handing over to a sub does allow one some extra control. When I did use the sub I set it to "over-peak" below the Ascents and used the room correction filters to shave off the top, level with the Ascents, and crossing over nicely with them. This effectively gave me a flatter, lower bass response from the sub. In this respect the EQ was quite a handy tool in its own right.

Good ; I misconstrued due to the strength of your conviction . Leaving aside the type of post I hope we can agree to disagree on the worth of room correction, particularly given our different circumstances.

BlueWizard

Well, the subject has gotten completely off the beam. But I guess that's to be expected.

Some advice to Rob, if you want to gain anything, they you've got to give; that is, give it away for free.

You hinted at a lot of things like Room Acoustics, but you also only grazed the issue superficially, and that simply won't work.

We've all had discussions here on room acoustics. Discussions at various depths gear toward the person making an inquiry. We've discussed simple things like throwing a rug on the floor in front of speakers, hanging curtains, building sound absorbers and diffusers, all with many link to websites filled with information including informative videos.

We've counseled Joe School Boy on a starvation budget. We've counseled people building new additions on to their house for a dedicated media room. And everyone in between.

So, if you want to be taken seriously, you need to add some substance to your posts. You need to add some advice that doesn't sound like a sales pitch.

It would certainly be worth while, and if you added it to your blog, we would likely refer people to it often. But, it has to have substance, and it has to approach the problem in levels. Levels basic enough for a beginner to understand as well as levels for the serious audiophile. In doing this, you don't just say you are an expert, you establish it as a fact, and if anything brings you business, it will be that expertise that you have established by giving it away for free.

So, I think that is my underlying problem, and I think that may be the underlying problem of other who are criticizing you, where is the substance? Where is the real practical usable information on this subject?

What do I do if I am that Starving Student, how do I improve my room acoustics? Why do the acoustic need improving? What is it about my room that is causing the problem? What do I do if I'm Joe Average Family Man with kids to feed and bills to pay, yet would still like to improve the modest system I have? What do I do if I am in the enviable position of being able to build or remodel my own dedicated room?

Again, if you want business, it won't come from vague hints that only you have the knowledge and equipment to solve the problem. It will come from giving that information away, and proving you have the knowledge and expertise that will entice me to trust that you will earn the very large pile of money I will pay you to build a dedicated media room for me.

As I've said, we've already had long discussion on room acoustic at various levels and at various costs. Myself I'm cheap as dirty, or perhaps poor as dirt, so I'm looking for the low cost ways of accomplishing things. I may not be able to afford diffusion panels in my room, but I could probably afford to hang a convoluted foam mattress pad on the back wall. If you aren't prepared to expound on the options available to all people at all levels, and to give real practical information that solves very real problem for people at all levels of income, then I think you will get few to take you seriously.

As a side note: If anyone were to put convoluted foam on their walls, it would be very wise to make sure it is FLAME RETARDANT foam.

Partly because there are plenty of people here that are willing to give that information away for free, and to refer people to tons of on-line source of information, products, and videos etc... that will help them understand what they need, what they need to do, and why they need it.

So, you've got a good start, but if you want to establish that you truly do have worthwhile and practical information and knowledge in this area, you are  going to have to give that information away freely.

One website that I frequently reference in discussion like this is 'Real Traps' ( realtraps.com ), they have lots of free informative videos and articles to help people understand room acoustics and what absorption and diffusion can do for them. They get referenced endlessly because they are informative and substantial. They give away real usable information, and not just cheesy sales pitches for their equipment. But because they are referenced so often, they are in the forefront of peoples minds. When people need room treatments, this is the first company they think of. That brings them business. But hollow sales pitches serve no one. It is substance or nothing as you are seeing from the responses you are getting.

Just a few thought intended in the friendliest of ways.

Steve/bluewizard

Rob Sinden

I’m sorry if I’ve ruffled a few feathers after just a couple of days on the Forums but I suppose this is simply because I am so adamant that the way high end audio is sold and bought is nonsense and misleading. My input was supposed to be helpful and informative and yes ultimately sell some stuff.

I have never claimed to be an audio guru, but I have been taught by some of the best in the industry such at THX, PMI and HAA. You’ll find what I have said is in keeping with all these audio experts – two of which don’t have any products to sell, so surely cannot be accused of anything so vulgar as selling stuff. I had imagined people who didn’t know what I’ve learned from these organisations would be interested.

My main point was that buying good equipment is simply no guarantee of getting good sound quality and I find it astonishing that this is so controversial. I’ve pointed out the three methods that I have been taught to bring consistency and accuracy to audio systems. Room design, sub/sat and room correction. There are many brands that can assist in this and I’ve not once mentioned the ones I sell.

If you still believe that you can fix room errors by moving things in your room and changing cables etc. you simply haven’t realised how complex the problem is. Again this is something I was trying to make clear as this is often something you'll only realise after years of tweaking audio systems.

If you are after truly accurate sound – and yes I realise this is not everyone’s goal - then I challenge anyone to tell me how it can be done without full range room correction. Most rooms simply screw up audio systems so getting accurate playback without using room correction is impossible. I’ve recently built the best possible acoustic space I can and anyone is welcome to come and hear how much difference room correction makes even in this ideal space.

I ask again – please tell me how you get accurate sound quality without measuring and correcting a system? Do the laws of physics not apply in your rooms?

For those who are curious enough to find out if their system is accurate a cheap SPL meter and a test disc is all that is required to check the problem out. Look here for more info Software, Test & Measurement Tools. These true audio experts will even sell you a device to help rectify the problem - and it has nothing to do with me. Hurrah!

The practice of measuring video systems against test material is something I was promoting to the trade and press 12 years ago and is now common practice. Why then is the concept of measuring and correcting an audio system so alien? I simply cannot see any logic against it and for all the people who clearly think I’m just flogging stuff - no one has come up with a logical argument against this point.

I would suggest that anyone who thinks there ears are so perfect that they could tell any deficiencies in a system without test equipment belongs in the same category as people who thinks they can set up a projector to 6500k without calibration tools.

Most audiophiles have never tried a high quality room correction system (yes I sell them – but this doesn’t make them any less good) and yet are happy to dismiss them  as unnecessary, over priced, a rip off or flawed in some other way without ever having heard them for themselves. Just as testing and measurement is now common place in video reproduction systems, the same standards will start to come to audio systems. It’s logical and if done right it makes for much better audio.

If you don’t want to put it to the test and let your ears decide that’s for you to decide – I’ll keep doing what I do.

The_Krell

I have always worked on the principle that if I like the improvement/change in the sound produced then that is a step forward.

To say that cables and mains filters are unscientific nonsense is perhaps rather narrow minded.

Accuracy? What is that? A flat response at all frequency levels? I didn't build my system looking for accuracy per se. I built it to enjoy the music and sound from my perspective. I've been to demos with various people and whilst they appreciate different systems and what they do, we as individuals have disagreed on what we prefer and why. Is this because our ears are different or is it just that we are all different and therefore are looking for something that ignites a spark in us with the music?

Performance of speakers and amplifiers changes little year on year? But incremental changes add up and I would argue that performance over the last 10-15 years has been very significant.

Rob Sinden

When did I say I was looking for flat response at all levels?

Do you not think I'm building systems to enjoy music?

I enjoy all different types of speaker systems and love the diverse sound they create. Unfortunately most people simply wont enjoy them as the speaker designer intended or even as they sounded in the showroom as their rooms will create huge peaks and suckouts.

Comparing the effect of removing these room modes with the tweaks that cables and mains filters make if very, very different. One is measurable and scientific and will work consistantly in any room - the other dont.