Voter Fraud?

Toko Black

I'd be absolutely offended if black and ethnic minority peeps were not asked to provide ID.

Colour is irrelevant.  ID or no vote.  Simple as.

The only reason he's sounding them out is that more black and ethnic minorities vote Labour.

If they all voted Tory you wouldn't hear a peep out of him.

Disgraceful comments from Corbyn.  In some parts of the world he's be locked up for mouthing off such vile claptrap.

Bl4ckGryph0n

Happy or no choice ?

Simon is 19 and lives with his girlfriend's at her parents house.
He is estranged from his own parents and family because of their beliefs and anger over both his girlfriend not belonging to their faith and ethnicity as well as Simon's admission that he no longer believes in their faith.
Simon is currently unemployed, but doesn't claim benefits, and instead does all the housework, gardening and odd jobs for his girlfriend's parents to cover his food and board.
What little his girlfriend earns from her part time job while studying covers her bills and debts leaving a small amount for them both to buy clothes from charity shops and other essentials.
He is registered to vote his girlfriend's parents house.
He has no passport, no driving license, no bank account, no mobile phone and his name is not on any utility bill.
His original birth certificate is still in the possession of his parents and they won't talk to him and claim they can't find it.
He can apply for a new copy of his birth certificate, but that will cost him £9.25 that he doesn't have to spare.

The main issue I have is with peoples arguments based upon on their own experiences of life and situations that they then assume is the same or at least similar for everyone else.
That is not to say an individuals experiences are not representative of the general norms or that they don't have some value.
However, the context of what you are trying to prove or disprove is highly significant as to the value and validity of those personal experiences.
It is especially important when you evaluate whether something is true or false in absolute terms to distinguish it from being relatively accurate.

example:
'Dogs have four legs' is true in a biological sense and as a general rule, but not in absolute terms.
It only requires evidence that one dog is born with anything other than four legs or looses one or more in it's life time to make the statement false.
It doesn't matter how many examples of four legged dogs provided, it only requires one that doesn't to make the statement false.

It can be reasonably argued that MOST people can provide or reasonably acquire sufficient id or documents to prove their identity to vote based upon the proposed requirements.
It is a very bold and possibly naive position to claim that EVERYONE can based upon personal experiences and perceptions of the norm - unless you have extensive and comprehensive data and research to support that argument.

It's a fundamental logic fallacy to assume because one can't think of any valid reason for something that a valid reason doesn't exit.

Bl4ckGryph0n

You seem to be confusing ID with proof of address. Proof of address being provided electronically is totally acceptable. And easily checked. Heck we’ve just gone through that with lots of people.

Also for electronic evidence of ID there are good reputable services that can have them checked.

But ultimately if you want your rights you also have to take some personal responsibility to ensure you can exercise them.

IronGiant

Well, you’ve already highlighted what Simon then has to do to get his own life on track.

Sonic67

Is Simon even planning to vote?

Bl4ckGryph0n

I have utility bills from water, gas, tv, mobile, electric, rent, council tax, broadband, bank... Why would someone not just choose a different utility bill or some other means? There's a huge choice.

I assume you want someone working with kids to prove who they were?

This has far more options.
Why is he not claiming benefits? Why have you made up such a unique character? Does he pass your voting test? I just wonder if he's smart enough.
No mobile phone? I've known people in Kenya and Uganda living in an iso container with a mobile phone. Same with Afghanistan and Iraq, I'm guessing he must be the most unique person on the planet.
Hardly surprising if you are deliberately choosing not to have benefits and no phone means no chance of getting work. It's why migrants have them. So he's choosing not to work, choosing to have no benefits, these are his lifestyle choices. The UK should adjust to suit him?
Better take up your made up character with the electoral commission then.

Also show Simon this bit from above.

What if I cannot provide any of the ID listed above?

Toko Black

Or on the electoral role Without that first step it will be hard to get bank accounts etc...

rancidpunk

Simon is in fact Simone, a woman who is married and stays at home to look after the kids - all the bills, utilities etc are in her husbands name.

She is choosing to have kids, not claim benefits and stay at home to look after them ...... should the UK adjust to suit her ?

Why would someone not choose another utility bill or some other means ? If they are not in your name or you just don't have them ...

Simone's friend Shannon is in a similar situation. She comes from a devout and old fashioned family.
She is on the electoral register, but her family and husband don't want her to work, vote and she should obey her husband. For the most part she appeases her husband and family because she loves them and doesn't want her kids and family to split up or have arguments.
She has a polling card that came through the post and could potentially sneak out to vote, but can't now do so because the additional ID requirements and documents require getting them from her husband/family.

She desperately wants to vote because she read online that someone had said it was fundamental to getting MP's to represent and care about her.

Bl4ckGryph0n

I'm probably missing something blindingly obvious, but how does having a utility bill, or some such non photo proof of address, do any more to prevent voter fraud than the polling card alone?

I had thought the requirements would be for passport or driving licence, which could be problematic for a number of people, but rocking up with a utility bill doesn't appear to be an answer to fraud prevention.

IronGiant

I was glancing through the original proposals by the Electoral Commission (from 2014/5 I think) the other day and they deemed it essential that some form of photo ID would be required, but that has been rather watered down in the current trial.

My question would be, if ID cards were introduced, for voting or other purposes, how would Simon(e) or Shannon get one, if they can't prove who they are?