DWP failures and the real life costs

Pacifico

My last word on this as it is impossible to have a sensible conversation with you.

As you have said - if you have the evidence to support your claim then it will be rejected. If you subsequently appeal that decision then the DWP are not going to start handing out cash to you until that appeal is adjudicated - no matter how many times you claim that is what happens.

Toko Black

ESA Reconsideration and Appeal

In Mandatory Reconsideration:

You won't get any ESA payments while you're asking for a mandatory reconsideration if you were told you couldn't get ESA because:

you didn't score enough points at your medicalyou didn't go to your medicalyou didn't return the capability for work questionnaire (ESA50 form)
If you're challenging the DWP's decision to put you in the work-related activity group, you'll continue to be paid ESA.  The work-related component will also be paid while you're challenging that decision - but only if your claim was made before 3 April 2017.

In Appeal:

You can be paid ESA until the appeal is heard - this isn’t the same as making a new claim. You will need to ask the DWP to pay you while you’re waiting for your appeal - you can ask for this in your appeal letter.  


You will only get paid ESA if:


the Tribunal has told you it’s got your appealthis is the first time the DWP has decided that you’re fit for work, or the first time since the DWP decided that you have limited capability for work. (This means it applies only to your first attempt at claiming ESA. If you attempted to claim ESA, were denied and either did not appeal or failed to win the Appeal, subsequent attempts to start a new claim will not qualify for ESA payments if the subsequent claim goes to appeal)you give the Jobcentre fit notes from your doctorIn simple terms, if you have doctors notes and this is your first claim for ESA, during the Appeal stage of a claim, should it reach that point, you are entitled to base level ESA payments.
If you try again after being denied at Appeal, you aren't entitled to base level ESA payments for any further attempts.

To me, it strongly appears that you have been simply attempting winding up the 'lefties and SJW's' for fun, with total disregard for the members of this forum who either have been directly affected by the system or via family members, loved ones or friends.
You provided no evidence to support your claims, have thrown around terms like WRAG without appearing to understand what it actually means and essentially relied on the complexity of the processess and the lack of general awareness of how it works to 'have an argument'.

tapzilla2k

PIP wise ? If the DWP reject your claim, you have to ask for a mandatory reconsideration where the DWP usually upholds it's original decision. They do not and I must stress this they do not look at medical evidence. They go on flawed reports from ATOS etc. To appeal you have to ask for a mandatory reconsideration within 28 days, if you don't then you have to start the process all over again. The DWP has a target to uphold it's original decisions at the MRA stage, which they do in over 87% of cases. Then you can lodge an appeal with the Courts and tribunals service, which for me took around 8 or 9 months. I know some who've waited for 2 years almost. Whilst you await an appeal you receive no money from the DWP. Unless you apply for other benefits, and if it's Universal Credit then you have to go through a similar process, otherwise you are put in the group that's expected to actively seek work.

So if you win an appeal (most do) you get your payments backdated to the original decision. It's a pernicious system that has lead to immense suffering for the most vulnerable members of our society. I'm lucky in that my parents are able to take care of me when my mental health hits rock bottom. It's not easy having a rare phenotype of Bipolar Disorder that's incredibly difficult to treat. And before anyone asks I was diagnosed by the head of Oxford Universities Psychiatry department over a decade, it took that long to unravel everything.


With PIP you don't get any money until you win an appeal should the DWP reject your claim at the first and second stages.

​The Appeal system is overloaded due to the DWP relying on reports that the head of the Courts and Tribunal Service said is of such poor quality it wouldn't be allowed in a criminal trial.

The system is broken, it's saving no money and if I hear anyone going on about scroungers I would point them towards the people who've died due to DWP decision making and flawed reports which completely ignores medical evidence. This sums up how pernicious the system has become - Six-stone emaciated man who fought DWP after being denied vital benefits dies

All I will say about Universal Credit is that it's a virtual workhouse, which was likely the intent from IDS. I have nothing but contempt for him. He's got blood on his hands and I do not say that lightly.

Pacifico

Correct


​agreed

agreed

agreed


Rather OTT.

All I will say is that we agree that the present system is not fit of purpose and I have explained why Guaranteed Minimum Income wont work so what are the alternatives.

Anyone?

Toko Black

Stop trying to get rid of 100% of the scroungers regardless of the cost to health and wellbeing of the genuinely sick and disabled.

Clearly many cases where the DWP have and are disallowing claims and marking people as fit to work are not only incorrect and do get overturned:

1) the administrative and legal costs of incorrect decisions that go to tribunal and are overturned are costing so much money that it ends up more expensive than allowing and paying the claims in the first place.
2) the complete disregard for medical evidence from doctors, hospitals and specialists in favor of relying on a limited attempt at a one case fits all check list report from a person with limited medical training and experience(given the broad range of conditions, illnesses and mental health status that require specialist and dedicated knowledge) who's only contact with the claimant is approximately 30 mins to 1hr.
3) the political pressure and direction from both Government and within the up ranks of the DWP to meet targets and weed out those deemed 'fit to work' has led to a toxic culture and set of working practices that neither benefit the Tax payer nor the sick and disabled.
4) the sheer number of cases where genuine sick and disabled people are suffering needlessly without income and/or under stress and fear of the constant assessments and reviews that can sometimes go one way then next time the other.​
Given the above, I would suggest that regardless of whether it is an ultimate fix for the system or not, the moral, ethical and practical solution should be to:

- lessen the pressure on DWP staff to find people 'fit for work'.
- err on the side of the claimant in any cases where there is a 'grey area' that doesn't necessarily tick all the boxes on the form, but none the less has clear medical evidence of need.
- refuse payments immediately only in CLEAR cases of people attempting to fraudulently claim, i.e where they have very little or no clear medical supporting evidence and of course when there is any evidence to the contrary, like where there is a video of a man who is supposedly paralysed from the waste down playing in the quarter finals of his local 5 a-side league and scoring the winning goal.

The ideology and beliefs behind the current system and policies are flawed. It was and still is the belief that there are far more people fraudulently claiming sickness and disability benefits than in reality there really are.
The idea was that all those fraudulent claims were costing too much money and that those people commiting the fraud should be caught, punished and then forced into work.

The reality is that in trying to reach the figures of denied claims they expected, they failed because too many claims were genuine.
But there are still some people so enraged and caught up in the need to catch and punish the cheats, that any genuine sick and disabled people who get caught in the cross fire are merely an unfortunately necessity to placate that rage.

chopples

A couple of things for DLA/PIP

1. Reduce the application form complexity, there is pages and pages with how many minutes do you need help with xyz for example, you either need assistance or you don't. Get rid of all the same questions asked in a "different way". They could consolidate this by including an additional form which can be passed to the paid professional responsible for your care. Not enough applicants know you can get supporting statements. Many get confused by the form and then supply reports from 6 monthly appointments which may not have any relevant info.

2. At the Reassessment stage get the staff to offer more guidance on what information is required so the claimant can seek this out, they could also tone down the "be warned you may lose what you have already been awarded" spiel if you decide to be reassessed. All this does is add to an already pretty stressful process

3. As @tapzilla2k mentions and I also touched on in an earlier post, The government has a performance metric at the reconsideration stage based on upholding the original decision. This needs to be removed and staff be allowed to objectively look at the claim again, rather than have the mindset that this claim is not valid now prove us wrong they should allow staff to contact claimants and tell them  what is needed to get it approved.

4. Staffing needs addressing, appreciate this is a cost but 100's of staff have been diverted elsewhere which only adds to the backlogs and stress for the staff at the DWP. Adding unnecessary pressure to what must be a difficult job. I read last year the 400 staff had been diverted to fix a 1.5billion cock up and they expected that number to rise to 800.

I think the important thing is to give both the DWP staff and claimants the tools to get the right decision in the first instance do this and the rest becomes trivial. Its clear at the moment though that this isn't happening

cheers

BobbyMac

Or maybe go for the tax avoiders who cost the country approx 20x the amount it's estimated is fiddled on the social

But then that would involve lifting the veil on the seedy UK offshore banking system

Derek S-H

Their policies and procedures are clearly ideologically driven i.e. that the system is riddled with fraudsters and cheaters, and they're using a sledgehammer to crack a nut.

They are NOT saving money from "hardworking taxpayers" (now where have I heard that phrase before?), are putting off people claiming their ENTITLEMENTS and are making already sick people even more ill with stress.

If you've got any experience in any job, you'll know fairly quickly who's genuine and who's not, there really doesn't need to be this convoluted system. It could easily be streamlined and produce the same, if not better, results.

Pacifico

Tax avoidance is perfectly legal - fiddling the social is not.  

Pacifico

Sorry I had to laugh at that one. I ran it past the wife who has spent over 20 years in the DHSS and DWP and she cannot remember a single change to the system that streamlined it.