What is English Nationalism?

Liquid101

Wrong on numerous levels. You seem as ignorant of history as well as culture.

The vikings were defeated at Stamford Bridge. That was it for them after that.

Meanwhile the Normans only really influenced the ruling classes.

England was ruled by Normans, though never actually became truly Norman. In fact there may well have been only a few thousand Normans who actually stayed in England and eventually these became "English."

The Norman influence was mainly on things like our language for instance words like "beef" (boef) when cattle meat was served at the table of Norman aristocrats. At the time Anglo Saxons used the word "cu" (from where we get "cow") to talk about cattle and its meat.

There was also the adoption of names for children like William, John etc and things like Norman architecture in churches.

Sonic67

Invented by Scotland and John Logie Baird.

John Logie Baird - Wikipedia

Or by Russia.

Vladimir K. Zworykin - Wikipedia

TV was such a huge thing, numerous advances were made by different people.

SteakAndCake

A list of historic writers doesn't define culture though.

The wikipedia article has a better stab at it - but like most of what we might define as English has been influenced by those we have come into contact with through invasion, war and colonisation. Even our language isn't native to these islands. We'd could just as easily all be speaking something closer to Welsh.

Most nationalists pick on a snapshot of time which best suits their narrative.  Why can't we all accept that culture is transient. In 500 years we'll probably have moved on and be calling this island something else, and the idea our separate nations will be just a period in history.

Liquid101

It's part of it. Beatrix Potter is huge in Japan. People travel thousands of miles to see the museum. In the same way what elements of Japanese culture would you travel thousands of miles to see?
And? You sound like another leftie with Empire guilt. You can use the same point about any country. In fact which country hasn't?
All languages evolve.
And? We are talking about now. I'm not going to be around in 500 years.

Why do you have such a problem with it?

SteakAndCake

All people to be rightfully proud of, but again, do they define our current culture?  How many average British people have even read one book by those writers?  Do their works reflect modern British life and the culture for the average man? I'd argue, no.   

Are we not building some fantasy British culture by cherry picking our historical highlights?

What can we collectively as a country be proud of right now in 2019?

I'm not saying there isn't anything, but nothing immediately springs to mind.

Sonic67

Do you feel that this kind of thing needs protecting with organised nationalism? Do you think that one day we'll lose touch with our historical cultural figures?

Don't you have some kind of Empire guilt? None at all?

Plenty of countries that have strong cultural identity that haven't invaded others. India and Switzerland come to mind.

All cultures evolve, and will continue to evolve despite the best efforts of some. I get the feeling with some nationalists that they want to rewind to what they perceive as a good old days.

I don't have an major problem with nationalism - I just think its absurd and short sighted. National cultural identity is a construct - it's not real. In reality, culture has more to do with geographic features and climate than it does with imaginary lines on a map.

Sonic67

Nationalism is taking pride is stuff other people did who just happened to have been born in the same country as you.

It's pretty absurd when you think about it that way.

SteakAndCake

Note, if this was a thread about Scottish culture and I asked you to name things that define Scotland you'd probably say kilts, bagpipes, haggis, porridge and tartan.

Not one of those things is Scottish.

Scotland is named after the Scoti, a celtic tribe from Ireland.
Scottish Gaelic is a dialect of Irish.
Kilts were invented by the Irish, the word is Danish and the modern kilt was invented by an Englishman.
Bagpipes are from asia, were in the bible, and were probably introduced by the Romans.
Haggis from Greece sausage.
Porridge, from Central Europe and Scandinavia.
Whisky from ancient China, came to Ireland and then from there to Scotland.
Tartan, designed by English garrison regiments and encouraged by Queen Victoria.

All still part of Scottish culture though.

Is it because some daren't talk of English culture?

Some English culture.

Inventions.

Reinforced concrete, steam turbines, electric motors, world wide web, clockwork radio, vacuum cleaners, sewing machines, microwave ovens, central heating, TV (as well as Scotland and Russia you can investigate Shelford Bidwell and the cathode ray tube was from Sir William Crookes). Satellite fuel cells, postal service, computers, jet engines, stainless steel, hovercraft, submarines, the kilt, plastic, modern WC, lawn mower, immunisation, cardiac pacemakers, blood transfusions, football, rugby, cricket, tennis, golf, basketball, and the English language (also the international language of the air, and spoken as a first or second language by eight hundred million people)

What have the English ever done for us?

Music? Thomas Tallis, William Byrd, Henry Purcell, Edward Elgar, Gustav Holst, William Walton, Eric Coates, Ralph Vaughan Williams, Frederick Delius and Benjamin Britten, The Beatles, Led Zeppelin,Pink Floyd, Elton John, Oasis, The Prodigy, Queen, Black Sabbath, and The Rolling Stones.
Yes. Shakespeare alone has contributed a massive amount of English words to a language which has spread round the planet.

50 expressions coined by Shakespeare or popularised by the Bard

More words and phrases coined by the Bard

- "For goodness sake" - Henry VIII
- "Neither here not there" - Othello
- "Mum's the word" - Henry VI, Part II
- "Eaten out of house and home" - Henry IV, Part II
- "Rant" - Hamlet
- "Knock knock! Who's there?" - Macbeth
- "All's well that ends well" - All's Well That Ends Well
- "With bated breath" - The Merchant of Venice
- "A wild goose chase" - Romeo and Juliet
- "Assassination" - Macbeth
- "Too much of a good thing" - As You Like It
- "A heart of gold" - Henry V
- "Such stuff as dreams are made on" - The Tempest
- "Fashionable" - Troilus and Cressida
- "What the dickens" - The Merry Wives of Windsor
- "Puking" - As You Like It
- "Lie low" - Much Ado About Nothing
- "Dead as a doornail" - Henry VI, Part II
- "Not slept one wink" - Cymberline
- "Foregone conclusion" - Othello
- "The world's mine oyster" - The Merry Wives of Windsor
- "Obscene" - Love's Labour's Lost
- "Bedazzled" - The Taming of the Shrew
- "In stitches" - Twelfth Night
- "Addiction" - Othello
- "Naked truth" - Love's Labour's Lost
- "Faint-hearted" - Henry VI, Part I
- "Send him packing" - Henry IV
- "Vanish into thin air" - Othello
- "Swagger" - Henry V
- "Own flesh and blood" - Hamlet
- "Truth will out" - The Merchant of Venice
- "Zany" - Love's Labour's Lost
- "Give the devil his due" - Henry IV, Part I
- "There's method in my madness" - Hamlet
- "Salad days" - Antony and Cleopatra
- "Wear your heart on your sleeve" - Othello
- "Spotless reputation" - Richard II
- "Full circle" - King Lear
- "There's the rub" - Hamlet
- "All of a sudden" - The Taming of the Shrew
- "Come what, come may" - Macbeth

20 Words We Owe to Shakespeare

Millions. Heard of Harry Potter? Who wrote that? I'm assuming you don't know many educated people or aren't yourself. I've read a lot of Shakespeare, Dickens and Tolkien and every Sherlock Holmes book. Even if you haven't are you telling me they haven't created a culture? Tolkien alone practically invented an entire Dungeon and Dragons fantasy world still being used by people like George RR Martin. Wells pretty much defined a lot of sci-fi. Martians with heat rays is pretty much every Flash Gordon with a laser gun.
Then you are a fool. You can barely escape English culture. I'm guessing you haven't travelled much. Once you meet foreign cultures you realise what makes the UK unique.

For instance around Europe you might be served a continental breakfast. Here it might be "a full English" with "a builders tea."

When I was in Uganda I was sat opposite a Frenchman who was marvelling I was eating baked beans. The country is 20 miles away and he thought it was bizarre.

When we went to Kazakhstan there was a panic as the only tea to purchase locally was Liptons tea. A tea that is popular elsewhere but not here. Some thought there might be some kind of riot until it turned out someone else had packed English tea brands and sent them. Tea alone is so important to our culture it was next in line from bullets in a world war. In the same way kimchi is an important part of Korean culture.

A nice cup of tea - so is it milk in first or tea in first?

After your full English, how about watching cricket with a "warm beer?"

Beer is another thing fairly unique. Across Europe it's mainly pilsners, and lagers. Not far off that globally as well.

Whereas in the UK it's cider, bitter and mild. Cider because we created a lot of apples, and didn't have the climate for grapes and wine. Bitter has been brewed all over England. particularly Burton, Manchester, Newcastle, Wolverhampton etc.

In Germany you can get Altbeer (literally "old beer.") but it's not quite the same.

Also note. "Warm beer" means cellar cold. Not from a fridge but from a cellar so it's "warm" in the sense of being warmer than from a fridge but not literally warm.

In the afternoon you could have a barbecue. Not particularly unique to England, it's a big part of Argentine or Australian culture, but if you serve a pimms at it that's another thing you don't find much of elsewhere.

In Britain there was an unwritten rule, Scotland made whisky, England made Gin. Hence the picture of "Gin Lane." When we were in India people would drink quinine in a tonic water to fight off malaria. As tonic water wasn't pleasant, gin was added. That then created the gin and tonic. A work of genius. Molecules in the gin and in the tonic, mesh perfectly to create a pleasant drink from two things not so nice on their own. Try it.

Sonic67

Yes.

Try thinking about what is here and what other countries don't have.

How about equality.

We have gay marriage here.

Brunei has recently passed a law where if you are gay you will be killed.

Brunei: New Penal Code Imposes Maiming, Stoning

Same with equality for women. Saudi Arabia has finally allowed driving licenses for women.

Our police service, parliament and judicial system is practically immune to things like bribery.

Why do so many people travel thousands of miles to come here and not elsewhere?

Sonic67

It was.

THE SATURDAY SOAP BOX: WE HAVE TO MAKE JERUSALEM ENGLAND'S NATIONAL ANTHEM

I believe this trend began during Euro 96, when England were drawn in the same group as their Scottish neighbours. When the Scots came to Wembley, England fans were suddenly made aware that, no matter how attached to it they felt, the Union Jack wasn't actually their flag. It belonged to the British. Faced with this dilemma, they remembered England had its own flag, the flag of St George, which has now replaced the Union Jack at all English sporting events. This didn't happen because someone in power decided it should. The fans, realising the Union Jack no longer represented them as England supporters, made the change.

BBC NEWS | England | The fight to keep flying the flag

When England won the World Cup on home soil in 1966 most of the flags being waved in the crowd were Union flags rather than St George's crosses - a tradition which remained in place by the time England made the semi-finals in Italy in 1990.

It was only 10 years ago, when Euro 96 saw England host a major tournament for the first time in 30 years, that the flag of England replaced its British equivalent as the supporters' flag of choice.
Mr Perryman said: "Two things happened in 1996. Labour didn't come into power until the following year but already people knew they were probably going to bring in devolution, and also we played Scotland for the first time in years, so people wanted to celebrate being English rather than British."

CBBC Newsround | UK | England flags flying off shelves

Sales of England flags have gone through the roof as the country's shops try to keep up with demand. You can't have missed them flying from car aerials, hung up in front windows and outside every pub and supermarket.

We have become more "English" as a result of Scottish and Welsh devolution and people in England are now considering themselves less British and more "English."