Have Public Sector cuts now gone to far?

Ruperts slippers

So you are going to drop the personal stuff? Good.

There is no single or simple answer to have the cuts gone too far.

For instance the NHS has not been cut at all. In real terms their budget has been going up every year. Yet from the comments you hear you would think the government had been add slashing budgets. They haven't.

Social care has more of a structural issue where the areas that need the most support are the areas least able to afford them. So that is more about getting money to the right places than just throwing money at the whole system.

And of course we cannot ignore that we still have a hefty £60bn budget deficit so any decisions on increasing spending would have to be made with that in mind.

An argument labour are making is that they would make different choices. In particular it seems they would reverse the corporation tax cuts. I think this warrants further discussion.

My view is that they are being too short term in their thinking and not looking at how to grow the economy in the long term to pay for services in future.

Faust

If there are 'Fundamental' issues within a 'Public service' such as the NHS, I've highlighted a few, these need to be tackled, then a strategy for increased funding can be begin....
And I didn't say people shouldn't receive sick pay. You have not debated or answered any of the thoughts presented by myself or others.

Sonic67

Actually if you look at NHS spending promises there is a great deal of smoke and mirrors accounting going on.  Some initiatives and increases have already been announced at least twice before then there is money syphoned off from other areas of the NHS then announced as 'new spending' when it's not.

There has also been announcements of large injections of cash but again when examined it won't be released before 2019.  Money that has been given has simply been to plug the gap re: social care but again it's nowhere near the amounts that have been slashed from LA.

Finally the money the NHS has had has partially been swallowed up by inflation and other costs so in effect in a time of rising demand the NHS has only just about stood still in real terms.

Most of the precept that councils are being allowed to charge this year on top of council tax will be swallowed up in having to increase low paid workers to the national living wage so again nothing for social care.

I think politicians of all colours need to come together and work out exactly what is needed to provide acceptable public services in the 21st century then reach a consensus of how this can be achieved.  The old, the sick, the vulnerable etc. etc. should not be made into a political football.

When we have done that we then need to look at how we put right our crumbling infrastructure. When I travel to America or other parts of Europe I don't see neglect and decay everywhere.  I see roads and streets that are clean and well cared for, not full of potholes.  I see renewal almost everywhere.  The UK in many many areas is starting to resemble third world countries not first world.

domtheone

How about an overall increase in levels of taxation.
1 percentage point rise in all rates of income tax would raise £5.5 billion. Or push up-to 25%.
1 percentage point rise in all employee and self-employed National Insurance contribution (NIC) rates would raise £4.9 billion.
1 percentage point rise in the main rate of VAT would raise £5.2 billion. Or raise VAT to 25%.
Application of main rate of vat to zero rated/reduced goods would raise £39 billion. Or maybe a levy of 5% on goods currently exempt from VAT, food etc..
A CGT levy on main homes would raise £13.8 billion.
Doubling of CT bands E, F, G and H rates would raise £7.7 billion.

Any rises in taxation will also mean changes in the economic behaviour, whether these add value to economic activity remains to be seen. Economic activity and reactions of individuals along with the effects on the wider economy are always an attempt to predict the unpredictable. Added to the fact that government distribution of public services have a tendency, to, not, behave in a fiscally responsible manner, government action on the part of resource distribution may not be the best answer. The highlighting of 'Fundamental' problems in the NHS for instance means that convincing tax payers to stump up yet more cash from already stretched budgets will take some strong arguments and will mean changes to working practices across a wide range of public services, maybe a change in workers rights to enable managers to remove unproductive staff or staff resistant to change,  encouraging informal working practices, such as reacting appropriately to fluctuations in demand with flexibility regarding break times and holiday entitlements, this could open up discussions concerning pay enhancements and performance related perks.

These are the issues Labour should be debating in parliament, not the gender, rights, renationalising railways nonsense. Personally I have no issue with raising taxes but 'Public sector' workers need to be aware that any salary increases come at a cost and must add value to the wider economy. Continuing along the same worn path of poor value and will exacerbate current frustration with public services.

https://www.ifs.org.uk/uploads/gb/gb2015/ch10_gb2015.pdf

Ruperts slippers

Neilios - Believe it or believe it not most of the things you mention re: working conditions have already been implemented for some time now.  Example, many departments in a number of public sector agencies only allow two members of staff to take annual leave at the same time.  If you’re off sick for more than 10 days then HR make a visit to the employee’s home.  This is not simply a visit to wish them a speedy recovery.

However, the very things you have suggested and are happening have had unforeseen consequences for recruitment and retention of staff.

I’m not going to identify the actual agencies as it wouldn’t be fair.  There has been a move over the last few years to close local offices and create large centres in major cities.  Quite a lot of the staff at these centres are new to the public sector and have been recruited/poached from the private sector.  However, the agencies have had a high turnover of staff.  I have seen documents from staff who have left having been asked their reasons for leaving.  The comments of Dickensian, oppressive, slave labour, ridiculous workloads are to mention but a few.  It appears that for many new recruits working in the public sector has come as a shock.  They thought it would be easier than working in the private sector but many couldn’t wait to go back.

So many people believe the stories they have read in the newspapers about the public sector, comments such as how ‘cushy’ it is etc. and have found the reality to be far different.

On the subject of raising income tax.  I have said for a long time now the only way this problem is going to be solved is to raise income tax.  However, for both Labour and the Tories any mention of raising income tax appears to be the 'nuclear option' and each has ruled it out.

Another big headache for the chancellor is that only 48% of workers are now paying tax.  The rest are on such poor pay they have been taken out of the tax bracket completely.  There's also a lot of workers on this recent phenomenon of alleged 'self employment' again very few are paying tax.  If you take this together with frozen fuel duty etc. then what this means is the tax base is being eroded.

You can't keep doing more with less, there comes a point where less mean less and it appears we have just about reached that point.

Sonic67

And they tend to be departments that allow flexible working. However, if you have flexible working there still needs to be someone there. The place still needs to be able to function as a department. Try being the only employee trying to cover everyone's job!

I have known places in the past where sick leave was just more "leave." Someone had taken all their holiday for the year but as she was entitled to sick leave and hadn't taken it yet she went sick and then had a paid "holiday."

Levels of sickness were so high that it was brought in that if you went sick you didn't phone in to work you phoned a nurse and the nurse discussed it with you. Note this could come good. If you are genuinely sick a nurse should be able to make a better decision as to how long you should have off better than your boss.

Also what's wrong in someone visiting your home? If you are genuinely ill then it's part of your employer's responsibility as part of a duty of care to manage your return to work. If you are ill then they can visit and discuss it. And ensure you are actually there.

I've known some take time off sick and be out shopping, visiting others, or essentially, again "on holiday." The thought they might have someone visit their home while they were out gallivanting filled them with horror. They didn't see it as essentially they were committing fraud.

Faust

The Daily Telegraph says it's uncovered figures showing that more than six hundred NHS quango chiefs are on six figure salaries, as the NHS attempts to make £22bn pounds in savings.

It says the number earning more than the prime minister has doubled in just three years.

Patient groups tell the paper the figures are "shocking", "incredible" and "depressing" while Janet Davies, the head of the Royal College of Nursing, calls them an "insult to nursing staff".

Faust

I mentioned to the wife, where are all the staff, and she'll say "Oh they're on holiday, flex working, phoned in sick, taking time owing", eh, if demand is high on a Monday after the weekend, why are management allowing low staffing levels to happen, some of these managers are 'Thick', seriously, and they don't give a monkeys, they take no ownership of responsibilities, "Bye I'm off for a meeting" or "I've got some laminating to do"..
Figures concerning sickness in the public sector don't paint a pretty picture, with public sector workers loosing and average of 3% of working hrs, compared to 1.8% in the private sector, with 'High stress' positions like senior management, 1.2% and intense heavy duty construction workers standing at 1.7%, the self employed also stand at 1.2%.. So what is it, are the public sector workload and conditions so bad that people cannot help but take more time off, or is other factors that are influencing employee choices in this regard. So when public sector employees complain and people demand better services, this 'Fundamental' issue has to be dealt with..
Sickness absence in the labour market - Office for National Statistics


I've got to say, in the construction industry any time off is frowned upon, let alone 10 days, personally I had a quite a bad time with depression at the beginning of the millennium and I was shown the door, no mercy, luckily I had a decent support network, it forced me to make different choices and opened up new opportunities. I don't understand the mindset that somehow going to work is always going to be an easy rewarding experience, sometimes people just have to 'Muck in', or step aside and allow someone more capable take the position.

Faust

You missed out "I'm working from home." Sometimes that might actually be genuine. Other times I wonder.

Ruperts slippers

Seriously you guys, you're either not listening/reading or simply trolling.  What you describe today is the PS of yesteryear, it's certainly not the public sector of today.  If you have employees running back to the private sector because they won't put up with the working conditions then that should tell you all you need to know.

The HR team are not going round to employees homes after 10 days to check on their welfare, they are pressuring the employees to return to work - or else.

There really is none as deaf as those who will not hear.