Global warming

johntheexpat

Takes us right back to the first question then.  Why?  Which bit of the science is fundamentally flawed and why?

Or...

Are the Governments behind the conspiracy, just so they can raise cash, or are they in league with the scientists?  The scientists keep their jobs at the taxpayers expense, so long as they keep feeding the Government with enough lines to justify extra taxes?

And why would the Government bother?  If they want more money, just up the tax rate.  Simple.

And why do the media play along?  Surely they would much rather report the shock horror scandal of Government cheating everyone by lying about GW than toeing the line?

And with the power of the internet and instant global communications, how come all these people who know it is a con can't get their act together enough to put forward a convincing rebuttal?

This is one massive conspiracy.  Everyone from George Bush, through to the Chinese Government are joining in, just to raise a few extra quid.  Seems like a hard way to do things, when they could just click their fingers and raise all the extra dosh they want.

sidicks

That historic and more recent temperature changes are driven by man-made emissions of carbon dioxide.

QED

johntheexpat

I somehow doubt that anyone thinks historic temp variations are driven by man made emissions of CO2.

(from the Scientific American article)

What the scientists are worried about is not that the climate is changing, it does that all by itself and has done presumably since Earth has had a climate.

Its the rate of change that concerns them.  And the effect that a rapidly changing climate has on mankind.

All the extra CO2 is just like another layer of insulation in a back garden greenhouse.  It slows down the rate at which heat is lost.  It doesn't particularly stop the greenhouse heating up when the sun shines though.
So while extra insulation may be nice in winter, in summer it is disastrous.

So, the climate is changing.  Getting warmer.  Some of that is a natural effect, some is the down to the "extra insulation" added by CO2 and all the other usual suspects.

Now, if the climate changes too quickly, places that are barely habitable now become uninhabitable, before the population have a chance to adapt.
Places that are habitable now, soon become very unpleasant indeed.  (Ask any Australian how they would like another few degrees added to their already very hot summers), so people will move.

Huge areas of Africa and Asia become too hot to live in, just as the populations start catching up with the first world.  What are they going to do?  Stay and die or move?  And where will they move?

Bangladesh basically disappears under a rising tide.  Where are they going to go?

etc etc ad infinitum.

Nobody is saying that we can stop Global Warming.  It is part of the natural process.  But what they are saying is that if we act sooner rather than later, we may be able to slow the process down enough (by reducing our contribution) so that humanity can adapt at a reasonable pace, rather than being forced into a corner which will only result in trouble.

sidicks

Yet temperatures have been broadly flat for the last decade...So the models are already 'wrong'

That's the theory, although clearly something different is occuring in practice - given current snow etc, the opposite of what is predicetd by the global warming models....


Except it is not, at least not at the moment.

And we have no idea which is the biggest influence whether it is CO2, the sun or some other factor.

But sun spots (which we don't control, and therefore can't tax) have shown the best corrleation with actual temperature changes.  The correlation with CO2 is poor / non-existent.

If El Nino / La Nina and sunspot activity are the key drivers of climate - plenty of evidence to suggest they are, and correlate much better to recent temperature changes than CO2 - then we are likely to be in for some much cooler periods over the next few years (Maunder minimum) so temperature increases will be the least of our worries.....

Nature adapts to climate change all the time.

Changes take place over tens or hundreds of years, so plenty of time to adapt.

Places that are currently uninhabitablle might become habitable.

Given the current snow occuring in the Australian summers, I'm not sure they are too worried at the moment....



Sidicks

johntheexpat

Firstly, the models are trying to predict future events.

From Instrumental temperature record - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

You pays your money and you takes your choice.

sidicks

These are the models that were used 10 year ago to predict doom and gloom if CO2 levels were not drastically reduced.

Yet CO2 hasn't gone down, temperatures haven't gone up, and you still want to believe these models can predict 10, 20 30 years into the future when they couldn't even predict the first 10 years ?!


Plenty of other data sets that show a different picture

Sidicks

echrada

Don't you have anything better to do...  I did not espouse a conspiracy. I merely stated my own beliefs and that does not need any argument one way or the other, as stated these are my own beliefs, no conspiracy theories etc.etc.

But if you do need articles, quotes and films here you go

The Great Global Warming Swindle

DPinBucks

OK, here we go again. I know I keep posting this, but I can always cut & paste from my other posts:
The greenhouse effect is real. Certain gases, notably CO2, water and methane, trap the sun's heat.The Earth's temperature at any time is a balance between energy received from the Sun and energy radiated away.Greenhouse gases mediate this process by trapping more energy than would otherwise be the case, thus making the planet rather warmer.Increase the atmospheric CO2 levels, no matter by how little, and the planet will warm to a new, higher, stable temperature.That is Global Warming.Mankind has unnaturally increased the Earth's CO2 levels.The Earth is thereby being warmedThat is Man-Made Global WarmingNow, every point there is basic science. They do what you ask; they do show, unequivocally, that "the science behind Global Warming is correct ". But I won't hold my breath for the Nobel Prize. It's simple GCSE physics, and has been known for decades.

Now I know for certain you're going to argue and bluster about it not really showing what you ask for, but that's just wishful thinking. It doesn't change the facts.

The other issue, which I assume you, like many others who think that science is simply a matter of opinion, are confusing with Global Warming, is Climate Change, and that's a slightly different kettle of fish.

I have shown you that MMGW is an inevitable fact. But how the Earth will handle that extra heat is still very much a matter for debate, in particular what the new temperature stability will be. In other words, although the Earth is warming through manmade CO2, we still don't really know how it will end up. Colder winters in the UK are one possible consequence.

DPinBucks

That's just simple conspiracy theory rant, utter cobblers but impossible to argue against,so I'll ignore it.No it hasn't; and no it doesn't. The climate is continuing to warm. Only on average will things be hotter. The crucial element is not temperature but energy. Add more energy to a stable system and it will chaotically move towards a new stability. On the way, extremes of weather, cold and hot, can be expected.No it doesn't - see aboveWrong on both counts. Global temperatures are higher than would be expected even after all natural factors such as sun spots are taken into account. A slight, random, increase in CO2 warms the oceans; the warmer water releases more CO2; a positive feedback greenhouse effect is triggered. The history you quote carefully omits the the temperature rises which followed the CO2 emissions.

DPinBucks

No it isn't!! Global Warming models predict climatic instability, including colder winters. DO NOT confuse weather with climate.So what? Who says MMGW is the biggest factor in current climate change?No they haven't and no it isn't. Sunspots run to an 11-year cycle. Climate warming has been shown to correlate very closely with man-made CO2 emissions over the past 200 years or so, since the start of the industrial revolution. You can see how the natural weather cycles (sun spots, El Nino, etc) cause fluctuations on the statistically significant rising temperature curve.Again, you're confusing climate with weather, and ignoring the fact that each effect is cumulative. A big effect doesn't swamp a smaller one; the two reinforce each other, and the net result is not usually a simple addition sum. In chaotic systems like climate and weather, two and two can make 4, 5, 1, 99, or anything.So what?No they don't. They can take a few years. We don't know, but we don't think we'll like it.