DAC Info that may be helpful

ukaudiophile

Hello,

Another option here to look at for hot rodding DVD players is the Perpetual Technologies P3-A. It's a $700 unit that pretty much blows away anything this side of the Chord DAC64 (and some people would question that rating that I've spoken to). This unit uses Crystal CS 4397 which carries out upsampling to 96 kHz and introduces jitter to take the word length to 24 bits. The actual P3-A can accept anything from 32, 44.1, 48, 88.2 & 96 kHz sampling frequencies and word lengths of 16, 18, 20 or 24 bits. On it's own, when connected to a Sony DVP-S7700 DVD player, the sound is a sensational, with all the HF 'digititis' erradicated from late 80's recordings, replaced with detail and actual harmonics in the upper frequencies, a mid range that is actually fleshed out and doesn't sound like it's been on Callista Flockhart's diet, and the lower registers have real weight and dynamics to them. Add to that the soundstage is an order of magnitude better than the standard Sony or my previous Wadia DAC.

The real beauty of this is that it's just the beginning. You can enhance this with the Modwright Signature conversion, which replaces critical components in the analogue path with superior items, the Monolithic P3 power supply, which replaces the standard wall wart PSU with a substantial outboard unit capable of delivering 1A instead of the 300 - 400 mA that the wall wart supplies. This increases the definition and subjective speed of the bass notes dramatically. Finally there is the P1-A which is superficially an upsampler and resolution enhancement unit, but the internal software uses sophisticated algorithms and psychoacoustic modelling to enhance the resolution from 16 --> 24 bits in a much more sophisticated way than the standard 1 chip Crystal solution used in the P3-A on it's own. You really have to hear this unit to believe it.

I thought this may offer another option to the DAC shopper on a budget.

Regards,

Dave

CJROSS

Dave Im not arguing that the Perp Tech DAC kit is not good sounding but by all accounts to sound its best it takes 3 boxes (as you have mentioned) to get the best from it (which BTW Ive heard is good & bad from different users just like you have heard with the DAC 64 nobody ever has a universal opinion on hifi kit) the fact that you end up with a 4 box CD player (including original transport into the P-1A) is a little excessive to me in that you can get very superior performance from one box DACs, that is all I have against the PT stuff to be honest, it has too many glowing reviews to be ignored but if you can live with a 4 box CDP then fine go for it. I find Im very happy with what I get from my 2 box DVD   DAC solution.

I used to own a DAC (like you mention above) which could hook onto 32, 44.1, 48, 88.2 & 96 kHz sampling frequencies and word lengths of 16, 18, 20 or 24 bits and onto a true 24/96 pcm signal from DAD discs. But I gave up on that because there was a dire lack of material to play via my pure 24/96 capable DVD transport, since then I have hooked up to a 48 Khz limit stereo DAC (with quite old 1998 technology) and I can honestly say that I have gained a much better performance than my old DAC. So its swings & roundabout dude. BTW how much does the PT stuff ie the whole shebang come in at these days last I heard :

P3A : £700
P1A : £700
Monolith PSU : £400

£1800 Which is exactly the same price as a Chord 64 !! BTW here is an interesting thread you may wish to read about “Hot Rodding” DVD players, I cant think of a better thing to do to a DVD than make it into a transport (that spins 44.1 Khz redbook CD & 48 Khz DVD material all through one superior processor) with a capable 48 or 96 Khz DAC on the end of it you will be smiling until the cows come home:

http://www.avforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=52488

ukaudiophile

Hello CJ and fellow enthusiasts,

michaelab

Thought I'd just add a little test I did in here.  I have since had my Tag DAC20 for a little while and I have decided to keep separate CD and DVD transports as much for convenience as anything else.

I did however try plugging my DVD player into my DAC20 and playing a DTS movie (The Fast & The Furious ).  It all worked fine, the DAC20 sends the DTS bitstream signal unchanged out of it's digital output.  Also, just as another small test, I switched my amp to it's anlog CD line inputs (coming from the DAC20) during the DTS playback (at very low volume - I had to try it!) and got just silence so it looks like the DAC20 wasn't making any attempt to decode the signal, which is a good thing!

Michael.

CJROSS

Some additions to the DAC FAQ about using a DVD Video as a transport. First off the general AV user will approach the addition of a DAC as a sympton of poor hifi playback from either his DVD player or the level of stereo perfromance from his AV amp, theis following advice is from some other discussions I have had about DACs on another forum :

Transports are the proverbial black hole in DAC circles, I can see why many people subscibe to the 1 & 0s pheory but there is no doubt that transport connection type & quality of DAC can induce unwanted effects into the DAC chain, Jitter is oft held as the bain of DAC usage but many will agree I think that they have heard very low jittered CD playback systems that sound harsh & veiled.

My personal preference of transport has always been DVD Video based this is for a number of reasons :

Quite a few (Pioneer, Denon, Sony ES) are capable of pure 24/96 PCM output this to my mind (IMHO) is a superior digtal output than one tied to 16/44.1 PCM, there is a belief held by some people I have spoken to in the past the higher the pcm data sent the lesser jitter effect on the signal. But the fact it can go that extra hurdle (if required) makes it superior IMHO, of course this is when fed a 24/96 PCM DAD DVD Video disc but it is the current highest stereo data stream allowed digitally on the market. Some makers like Perpetual Technologies have cottoned onto this fact and produce a product called a P1-A correllation engine which takes a 16/44.1 pcm input then upsample to 24/96 then output at 24/96 into their DACs, so like a buffer stage that reduces jitter and passes on a less jittered 24/96 signal to their 24/96 capable DAC.

Every DVD player in the land can output a 48Khz signal which again is a higher one than CDs output, so the joys of 48Khz DVD Video are within grasp to everyone. Even 5.1 mixes downmixed into stereo sound astounding IME.

As above you are not just tied to redbook CD for your listening material, many DVD Video now come with 16/48 PCM stereo tracks which a DVD Video will pass forward in the output from the machine.

Things get even better if you consider using a SACD/DVD Audio/DVD Video players as DAC Transports IMO as you open up those format types as viable stereo material for example :

Even though they are predominantly MC music formats SACD includes a discrete stereo mix on all SACD mixes & DVD Audio offers some 24/192 PCM stereo tracks, these can be sampled via the player into your amp, all that is needed is another set of ICs. So you will run am digital feed into a DAC then analogue output from the F&L Front MC outputs, here is a description :

SACD & DVD Audio can be enjoyed in stereo form even without a 5.1 surround amp, so using a MC SACD/DVD Audio device is in your stereo setup is not as daft an idea , all it requires is a set of IC from the L&R Front MC RCA outputs on the player, so the ICs you run for 5.1 F&L SACD will output 24/192 PCM stereo track on DVD Audio as well. What you gain is higher resolution processing from these formats processed onboard, on the back of most universal players is generally 5.1 analogue outputs, these are for Front Left & Right (Stereo), Centre, Rear Left & Right & a sub channel. So if you run a standard set of ICs from the F L&R RCA outputs, you can then gain the benefits of SACD & DVD Audio from the transport & oboard processors , then add an offboard DAC for current redbook replay via the coaxial output and you have all bases covered for the future.

MC players but perfectly usable in a stereo system I think you will agree

As for out & out quality in sound terms : I totally agree with dudes who say the best CD transport types to use for sound quality are dedicated CD Transports with Balanced XLR output, Masterclock synch linked cables (ie an extra cable purely for synching materclocks on the DAC   Trans), AT&T. Glass optical etc. etc. But IMO I like the ability to have the flexibility in material type I can use from my transport and as long as you get a good one with half decent jitter output, just look at a DAC that is quite resilliant to jitter (true recovery reclockers like MFs) from varying transports, a lot of transport woes IME can be addressed by the DAC before the transport itself proves detrimental.

I hope that in my views above it appears that I believe that transport quality is apparent and that it can make a difference hence my view on the connection types, but all kit is different from DACs to Transports to Electrical Supply quality it goes on and on. Im also a firm believer in the delineation of some kit in price terms in that I have found a £500 DVD player fitted with a £300 DAC can outperform the same DAC in a £800 CDP (To my ears of course). I happen to think most DVD players with a keen eye on low jitter can be used effectively as transports as long as they feed a DAC that has a recovery clocking design in its makeup, this again for DAC around the £1000 mark is a must, this level of kit is an indicator of what can be achieved lower down the ladder IMHO, I have no argument at all that dedicated CD Transports are better than DVD video players as transports but I would say that DVD players in this sector ie sub £1000 DAC are more than acceptable, but they are not the only fruit as it were, A lot of what a DAC gets right straight away is the separation of noisy circuitry & individual power supply rather than sharing within the busy confines of a transport box.

If I had a £2000  DAC sitting on my rack would I be content knowing it was being fed by a DVD player : Not a chance but Im happy with the level of transport quality I have at present. But everyones kit and "level of acceptance" is different (nothing wrong with that BTW) I personally feel for me that good results can be had (well as good as my ears can appreicate with a mid level DVD player doing the signal sending) with the quality of kit I have at present.

Feel the force of the DAC side !!

ditton15

I recently moved my 1994 yamaha CD670 from living room to dining room in order to make way for AV in the living room.  When 'tested' (all other things equal) the 'replacement Toshiba SD510 was not second at playing CDs.  I have (very) recently added a stereo amp (s/h AudioLab 8000a) and upgraded the phono lead from the DVD player to the amp, and things  have improved.

Is there anything about the specifications of the  Toshiba SD510 that suggest that it would not benefit from the addition of a DAC between it and the amp?

ta

ditton

ps In his reply to me in the amp/receiver forum ('musicality', CJROSS suggested I take my query here.

CJROSS

The answer is yes & no Ditton
It depends on the type of DAC used IMHO, as long as you try & source a unit like the DAC 20 or a MF A3.24 the level of performance increase will be quite high (IME) due mainly to the fact that they are already equipped (recovery clockers) to deal with various transports. Get a DAC (as mentioned) onto the end of that DVD player and you will jump into the £1000  CDP range IMHO. Im a firm believer in DACs at the lower end of the scale can transform a system, Conversely I agree with all the dudes who say that transport quality & superior connections are The Best between transports & DACs and make all the difference. But I think that sometime the quality of a DAC overides the quality of the transport especially at the levels of £1000 CDPs, remember the gains that offset the oft held jitter problems in the first place are separation of circuitry & noisy shared PSUs in an integrated, this added to a recovery clocking design DAC makes adding a DAC to a entry level/mid level or even sub £1000 DVD player a no brainer IMO.

Adding a good DAC should be your first step, see if you are happy with the change it makes to your current transport then great, If not getting a more upmarket transport can always be considered : I make no attempts to believe that my Pioneer DVD Transport is the ”Best” technically, there are superior transports with regard to jitter & connection types (my DAC sports a very estoric XLR input) I think the sound is does create is more than able to compete with very high priced CDPs and this has been achieved at a fraction of the cost (and on inferior connection type), a huge part of this being what the DAC contributes, so this DAC added to my Inferior transport has been very worthwile, note that I have noticed positive effects & upgrades by adding my first DAC then upgrading to another higher specced unit, the transport has remained the same but performance has increased this is purely down to the DAC itself IME. I kept my old DAC for an overlap period to convince myself that I was not hearing things. The beauty of DACs is that you should look at them as doing away with other transports, ie cutting down on the cost you keep having to repay for transports around your system, and by that I mean going from integrated to integrated, you are not getting the best sound per pound upgrade. This opinion will vary from person to person Ditton and you have to decide yourself what is best for you, for exanple I have space for one transport only and that is my DVD transport, I dont doubt that it could be improved by a dedicated CD Transport but I have no need for that because it sounds great as it is at present.

ATB & Good luck & BTW all IMHO of course.

CJROSS

A thread to read about CD Transports if you are interested :

http://www.avforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=63678

benji_m

Hi Ditton,

Yes a Dac would almost certainly improve the quality coming from your DVD player, but at some cost. However....

About 350 quid will get you a S/h Arcam Alpha 9 these days, with it's built in ring dac. The performance of an integrated CD spinner such as this is likely IMHO to improve upon anything you could achieve with a Dac for the same money.

Regards

M

common

Has anyone experiencd the TEAC Dt-1 Dac TSP around 500 pounds? I can get one dirt cheap and just wondered if any of you knew anything about this machine!

Thanks In advance