DAC Info that may be helpful

CJROSS

CJ,

You've convinced me - I've gone Rotel RDV995 as my transport with a DAC20 instead of a £500 CDP. I'm hoping the rotel will be excellent in it's role as it's about 6kg, built like a tank and always sounded v good with music.

I will let you know how I get on.


Cheers

CJROSS

Hey Common nothing like putting a bit of pressure on me

I think my views are pretty well known about the benefits of adding a DAC to a good mid range DVD Video player like yours with a good recovery clocking design, Its sometimes worth the flak I get when I hear what can be achieved (even with a crappy medium like RCA SPDIF) BTW I recall a review a couple of years back when the Audio Analogue Mastreo £1500 CDP came out a WHF review marked it down (3 stars) playing via its own transport (this CDP has a digital input which means it can be used as a DAC) lo & behold they tried it in DAC mode fed via a Rotel 985 DVD player and the sound performance jumped to 5 stars, funnily enough I have seen a HFW review saying the same thing about that particular CDP being fed via a CD player IIRC. All I can say is to get a £500 CDP to compare with the sound to the DAC 20. Good luck and I hope you like bro BTW here is some stuff as a future owner of a DAC 20 fed via DVD player that may interest you about listening to DVDs :

http://forum.hifichoice.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=1544&start=135

common

cant vouch for that particular DAC but TEAC are well renowned for making good CD tranports, have you checked out :

http://www.audioreview.com/reviewscrx.aspx In the DAC section ?

CJROSS

no pressure  mate

Brought it from your 'other' forum for £350 so if it doesn't work out ebay will come to my rescue  

pwiles1968

DAC use with a Universal SACD / DVD Audio / DVD Video Transport

Dudes of the DAC brigade I thought I would copy this in here, just some vibes from a thread on HFC (that will save me typing it again in future) about adding a DAC to a universal players (ie SACD DVD Audio   DVD Video) what should/can the DAC be used for ? well here is what looks like the best way to use a SACD/DVDA Universal player   an offboard DAC to get the best from all formats (SACD/DVD Audio/CD) :

Universal SACD   DVD Audio Player duties
SACD 2Ch Stereo tracks & DVD Audio 2 Ch 24/192Khz stereo tracks will be heard via
Front & Left MC Outputs on universal player, DAC Bypassed (as it cannot accept the level of signal)

SACD MC tracks & DVD Audio 5.1 Ch 24/96Khz 5.1 tracks will be heard via
Front Right & Left, Rear R&L & Centre,  MC Outputs on universal player, DAC Bypassed (as it cannot accept the level of signal either – may pass a downmixed 24/96 PCM signal on some DVDA players)

PCM offboard DAC (48Khz and above)
DVD Video 16 or 20 Bit/48Khz PCM Stereo tracks, these should be sent via your transports digital output into a 48 or 96 Khz capable DAC for processing. DD 5.1 can also be sent in PCM form downmixed into a 2 Ch 48Khz mix that users without DD 5.1 surround systems can enjoy.

CD 44.1 PCM mixes again sent via your transports digital output into a 48 or 96 Khz capable DAC for processing.

What this all means is that you will have the 5.1 Analogue outputs of the MC player connected up and also have another set of ICs running from the DAC to your amp for CD/DVD PCM duties.

Here is excerpts of a thread that may help some people in future thinking of a universal player getting into SACD/DVD Audio but still keeping an eye on CD duties :

Got it in one dude, in fact I was listening/watching Roger Waters : Live in the Flesh on DVD last night, aside from the 5.1 mix there is a PCM stereo track recorded @ 20/48Khz resolution an astounding mix is all I can say, more and more music DVDs are being equipped with a stereo PCM tracks and via a good quality stereo DAC it is excellent sounding IMO, I even find the DD 5.1 mix downmixed via my DAC superb sounding.

The highest level of digital signal that is available from DVD Vid or Audio players is 24/96 and that is if playing DVD material encoded up to that level, ie DAD 24/96 or DVD Audio : note that the DVD Audio material at 96Khz is 5.1 MC mixes Im not sure if this is available on a DVDA players output at this resolution, I believe it is downmixed to 2Ch 24/96 to keep it at the same level as the DVDV standard, this is all due to piracy concerns. There is higher PCM level available (under licence & propietary security) but these are via the IEE 1394 standard that can only be passes between a same manufaccers units (ie not a universal standard) these are at this point in time only available on the Pioneer 757i & AX10i AV Reciever & DcS kit for its SACD Transport & Upsampling kit (Confused ?). I think if you think of the offboard DACs as only processing CDs 44.1 PCM & DVD Videos 48Khz PCM material then that simplifies the whole deal, if using a universal player all SACD & DVD Audio 24/192 can be heard via the Front Left & Right analogue outs, and similarly all SACD & DVD Audios MC content being done by the onboard DSD & PCM DACs for passing to the 5.1 analogue outputs (for stereo & MC music). Your offboard DACs not being used for these formats.

24/192 is not available as a digital PCM stream and wont be IMO, so I would not concern myself with it to be honest in DAC terms, anyway to be listening to a 24/192 mix you will nedd to be using a DVD Audio or universal player like the 8300, the DACs onbaord these players can go to that level anyway, I would be listening to 24/192 mixes via the player & passing a digital output to a DAC for all other duties (CD & DVD PCM)

michaelab

I have not got to reading all the threads yet but I have a question sorry if the answer is already in here somewhere.

I have an AV based system and use the Marantz internal DAC’s for all of my sources I think the system sounds great especially considering what I paid for it. My next upgrade was more for convenience and space than anything, I will replace the DVD and CD changer for a dedicated high quality universal DVD, I am Waiting to see if Marantz Launch a Universal player (I cant afford £1200 for a DV8200).

On to the question bit - I was wondering if an external DAC would give a worthwhile improvement If I am using an AV amp, I know they will be superior to the ones in the AMP but the reason I ask is I have read several times on the forum that one of the biggest problems with AV amplifiers is the pre-amp stage  I was wondering whether the alleged shortcomings of the preamp stage would make the addition of a separate DAC a worthwhile investment for CD duties?

Oh and while I am on what does ‘LOL’ stand for It has been bugging me, am I the only person that has not worked it out  or am I the only one brave enough to ask.

pwiles1968

Wow! This thread still going

OK - short answer is that adding a separate DAC will probably not be worth it if you're still going to pipe its (analog) output through your AV amp.  You're right - the problem with most AV amps is their pre-amp stage because they convert analog inputs to digital first and then back to analog before going to the power amp stage.  That IMO would pretty much negate any advantages of a separate DAC for music.

Only AV processors at the extreme high end have even remotely acceptable analog bypass (Tag AV32R, Bryston SP1.7, Arcam AV8) where it might be a benefit to using an external DAC, but then the DACs in those processors are pretty good anyway so you'd have to be talking about something really special like a Chord DAC64 (like I have ) to make it worthwhile.

LOL is one of the most common internet abbreviations and it means "Laugh Out Loud" (ie very funny).

Michael.

michaelab

Chord DAC64? on your last post (admittedly a year ago) you had just received a Tag DAC20 what happened?

Did you ever contact Marantz about the SR4200 to see if it had an analogue bypass mode?

pwiles1968

Well Paul - it's the never ending upgrade bug    Seriously though, a friend of mine got a DAC64 and I tried it at home and was so blown away by it I had to get one.  It wasn't going to be so soon but a s/h one came up on eBay for a very good price so I went for it.  I just LOVE it - it's just the most "alive" sounding digital source I've ever heard.  I won't be upgrading now for some time

No, but I know that it doesn't.  The "direct" mode just cuts out some of the DSP (digital signal processing) steps, including bass management, but it still does the analog to digital conversion of analog inputs.  It's a bit better than nothing at all but nothing like a proper bypass which only the really top end processors have.

As you can see from my sig, I've kept my AV and stereo systems apart allthough the front speakers are shared by virtue of using my Arcam A22 as a "power amp" for them in AV mode.

Michael.

michaelab

I seriously considered a split system, Stereo/AV but needed to upgrade the AV side in order to get PLII which IMO is a must if you watch a lot of TV or Sky. I ended up with the SR5300 before Christmas, which was a massive improvement over my Yamaha DSP A5 in stereo and surround. I was still not totally happy with the stereo sound and reviewed some £400 cd players against my cheap changer they were better but only fractionally, (I am all too familiar with the law of diminishing gains) I decided there must be a better way to spend £400. I bought the Mono-Blocks blind as there was nowhere that had any to test and was blown away by the improvement (Taking into account the diminishing gains and all, there was what I would describe as a massive improvement) Bass deeper and v-tight, more detail and better separation in the sound-field.

I still had a nagging doubt that maybe it was not as good as a dedicated stereo system (that will be the upgrade bug kicking in) but a friend who has an Arcam Alpha 8R, 8P set-up who I have been converting to AV has had a listen and thinks it sounds as good as his system in stereo.

So I am happy, well as happy as I can be (that bug never goes away) but I am always on the lookout for upgrade options especially ones that do not cost the earth (I’m also broke), I think my source equipment is the weakest link at the moment which is why I was wondering about separate DAC’s for stereo, I did notice the Beekeeper say do not worry too much about AV A/D’s they do not make too much difference I think they are 96/24 in the Marantz. But I also Have 6.1 Channel Direct In which is supposed to support an External Decoder, I will call Marantz and ask if it is a true analogue bypass.

I did notice an ARCAM DELTA BLACK BOX DAC on e-bay I am assuming these are quite old now and probably not much better than my internal ones? had any experience?

Well Michael I have bent your ear enough for today thanks for the advice it is always good to learn about some new subjects (I am a bit weak on the DAC side).